Havok 7 即將到來 Havok

aston

今天在beta Grid 的Office hour meeting

Falcon Linden講了一大通正在測試的Havok 7新特性

提要：
1，  目前SL 1.3x用是4.6.1， 下一版1.4時候就是 7了 <-- 這句是吹的
2， 提供sculpty 物理形狀的支持， 現在所有的sculpty都被physical 引擎理解成球體， 未來將加入立方體， 圓柱體等等基本形狀
3， linkset 里面允許單獨定義physcial 的prims, 這意味著32 Prim交通工具的限制將被打破
4,  LSL 直接和Havok API 溝通？ （這部分 hota 解釋？）


好問題：

問： 也是用Havok的【半條命】憑什么可以跑得那么快， 又有實時重力等等，SL 也可以做到那樣嗎？

答：和其他游戲公司相比，我們在LL 面臨的是不同的問題。比如說Uncharted 2， 一個場景里面有500個動態物體我們就覺得很牛了，但是 SL里面隨隨便便就他媽上千個。我們允許SL用戶去玩幾乎任何東西， 即使有些東西他們真的真的不應該去玩。
.....
我們能(在physcial表現上）與下一代的視頻游戲相比較嗎？應該是不能。我們面對的是不同的挑戰。

Q: they are many things about the physicsengine that are different to other games that use Havok, such as HalfLife 2, the physics are faster responsive, realtime gravity etc do youthink in time that this will be accomplished with the Havok physicsengine within SL?
A: We at LL face a unique situation compared to other game studios. Take Uncharted 2, for example. They were proudto have up to 500 dynamic objects in a single scene. We frequently havethousands in SL. We allow people to do basically whatever they want Even when they really, really shouldn't.
。。。。
But are we ever going to be able to competewith the current next gen games as they're released? Probably not. Weface different challenges.
But I hope so.

現場， 注意， 打扮得最難看穿西裝的一般都是Linden

2010-2-5 06:10 PM

chatlog全文：（后面開始扯劃分地塊的UUID問題， 我不care, 就閃人了）
[15:21]  Oskar Linden: Havok is getting upgraded is the news for you today
[15:21]  Latif Khalifa: yeye
[15:21]  Drew Dwi: suprise feature of 1.36.1 right?
[15:22]  Oskar Linden: for aditi access I've been asking people to IM me directly to ask permission to get in
[15:22]  Falcon Linden: Yeah, oskar, you gonna get my branch QA'd by next week?
[15:22]  Oskar Linden: that's been working so far
[15:22]  completed upload, inserting
[15:22]  inserted.
[15:22]  import completed
[15:22]  Latif Khalifa: lets hope you use the oportunity to make sculpties collide properly this time around
[15:22]  Falcon Linden: Latif: We won't....at first.
[15:22]  Oskar Linden: It is potentially planned for a feww months out
[15:22]  Oskar Linden: most probably in 1.40
[15:22]  Sarria Yaffle: permission to test havok7 you mean?
[15:22]  Falcon Linden: (See the "No" part?
[15:22]  Melfina Marshdevil: noted the no
[15:22]  Oskar Linden: I'll talk more alter about getting in early on havok 7 testing
[15:22]  Latif Khalifa: Falcon, you bring nothing new to the Lab then ;)
[15:22]  Falcon Linden smiles.
[15:23]  Latif Khalifa: that has been modus operandi for quite some time ;)
[15:23]  Drew Dwi: current havok is 4 right? my memory is...
[15:23]  Oskar Linden: we'll have an earlier spot to get public testing on havok 7 and I'll communicate to you then about that
[15:23]  Oskar Linden: now let's have falcon talk about the changes and what to expect
[15:23]  Indira Matova: nice
[15:23]  Falcon Linden: We are currently running on Havok 4.6.1
[15:23]  Latif Khalifa: except babbage has woken up for some reason, and gave us some much needed scripting improvements
[15:23]  Drew Dwi: right, thought so
[15:24]  Falcon Linden: We will be upgrading to Havok 7.0.0, and hopefully we'll keep pace with their major versions in the future
[15:24]  Oskar Linden: babbage never sleeps Latif
[15:24]  Oskar Linden: he just is a busy man
[15:24]  Ima Mechanique: Latif, it's Winter in UK, which means cold and wet so not much to do but invent new stuff
[15:24]  Falcon Linden: The main reason for this move is performance. In case anyone hasn't noticed, sims are laggy.
[15:24]  Falcon Linden:
[15:24]  Drew Dwi: any big new "features" or just better performance?
[15:24]  Drew Dwi: err, or answer my q before I ask it
[15:25]  Falcon Linden: And we need better performance if we want to add...
[15:25]  Falcon Linden: ...more features!
[15:25]  Charlene Trudeau:
[15:25]  Oskar Linden: let's let the man talk
[15:25]  Oskar Linden: then we can take questions
[15:25]  Latif Khalifa: Falcon, it was my impression that physics was not the major cause of lag
[15:25]  Latif Khalifa: Oskar: ok
[15:25]  Falcon Linden: So for the first release, the hope is that there will be no behavioral changes
[15:26]  Disconnected from in-world Voice Chat
[15:26]  Falcon Linden: But you should notice improved performance in a wide range of areas
[15:26]  Falcon Linden: Speaking to the issue of sculpties:
[15:26]  Falcon Linden: I want to give you the ability to create a separate physics representation for your objects
[15:27]  Sarria Yaffle: WOO!
[15:27]  Melfina Marshdevil: O.O
[15:27]  sensory Hax: mink
[15:27]  xsensory Hax[it>en]: Mink
[15:27]  Falcon Linden: Exactly how this will work is up in the air right now, but it's pretty high on my list.
[15:27]  Sarria Yaffle has been wanting that for ages
[15:27]  Lares Carter: awesome.
[15:27]  Aisha Marshdevil: o.o....
[15:27]  Falcon Linden: The physics representation will be more limited, of course: spheres, capsules (maybe), cylinders, boxes
[15:27]  Falcon Linden: Maybe convex hulls
[15:27]  Techwolf Lupindo: Will that later can be use when mesh import comes to fruitation?
[15:28]  Falcon Linden: And collections of those. There will be none of the more complex shape types
[15:28]  Falcon Linden: But that will make your vehicles way better, for example
[15:28]  Seanas Alston: is it possible to make physics even more realtime?
[15:28]  Falcon Linden: I'd also like to add ray casting to the scripting language
[15:28]  Latif Khalifa: that will be good enough, compared to what we have now
[15:28]  Falcon Linden: Seanas: it's possible to make it not painfully slow But we need your help to do it.
[15:28]  Sarria Yaffle: basically invisible "prims" that overlap an object to define how physics treats it, thereby letting the object contain 255 prims and still m,ove?
[15:29]  Falcon Linden: Let's hold questions till the end, actually
[15:29]  Seanas Alston: yes falcon
[15:29]  Aisha Marshdevil: yea guys damnit i wanna hear this not spaming off questions!! >.<
[15:29]  Seanas Alston: lol
[15:29]  Falcon Linden: But raycasting will be nice for anyone who builds weapons. Linear casting is another option that would be great for automatic build scripts
[15:29]  Seanas Alston: quesitons are a good start
[15:30]  Falcon Linden: by helping you determine where to place an object
[15:30]  Techwolf Lupindo: I though someone was queing up the questions for later answers?
[15:30]  Falcon Linden: If they are, it's news to me.
[15:30]  Aisha Marshdevil: lol
[15:30]  Oskar Linden: PM questions to me ;-)
[15:30]  Aisha Marshdevil: let Falcon speak damnits
[15:31]  Falcon Linden: Mind you that the ray/linear casts are not guaranteed, but they are high on my list of things to provide
[15:31]  Falcon Linden: Another feature I can hope to implement is a scripting API for Havok's vehicle framework
[15:31]  sensory Hax can go over 31's prim for phisical? or always help with script?
[15:31]  Seanas Alston: oh and they is another thing about the physics engine, (im not saying its terrible) a physical object on top of another they are slightly spaced
[15:31]  Falcon Linden: much better, more efficient ground vehicles
[15:31]  Melfina Marshdevil: interesting....
[15:32]  Aisha Marshdevil: (glares at everyone who isnt falcon) -__-
[15:32]  Falcon Linden: Finally, there's the issue of joints
[15:32]  Falcon Linden: Joints are a giant PITA
[15:32]  Melfina Marshdevil: ...... (dies)
[15:33]  Seanas Alston: o.o?
[15:33]  Falcon Linden: however, if you're all very nice and write lots of letters to the CEO (kidding--don't do that!), I might consider adding them in a limited capacity
[15:33]  Techwolf Lupindo: A working phycicial swing would be nice.
[15:33]  Falcon Linden: Limited meaning that they could only attach things to the world, not to each other. You could make swinging doors, but if you move the wall away, the door would keep swinging
[15:33]  Latif Khalifa: hiearchical linking too? ;) How nicer we need to be
[15:34]  Falcon Linden: No.
[15:34]  Melfina Marshdevil: xD
[15:34]  Falcon Linden: And again, questions to Oskar
[15:34]  Falcon Linden: But I think that's most of what I have for now except to add that we definitely will not be using the improved performance to reduce limits on scripts
[15:35]  Falcon Linden: We want to give you the tools to make more efficient objects, not less efficient ones easier
[15:35]  Falcon Linden: And with that, I think we'll go to questions.
[15:35]  Oskar Linden: ok
[15:35]  Oskar Linden: again PM me the questions
[15:35]  Oskar Linden: I'm going from first served
[15:35]  Latif Khalifa: how about per prim phantom settings in a link set?
[15:35]  Oskar Linden: from Aisha Marshdevil: new physical prim limit? more than 32?
[15:35]  Melfina Marshdevil: Not a question: Falcon what you just said is epic.
[15:35]  Melfina Marshdevil: Bravo
[15:36]  sensory Hax: said the 31 prim limit will be exceeded?
[15:36]  xsensory Hax[it>en]: said the 31 prim limit will be exceeded?
[15:36]  Falcon Linden: No, there will not be a new physical prim limit. But if/when the physics proxy system comes into place, you can have as many display prims as you like if the physics rep has <32 prims
[15:36]  Falcon Linden: Does that make sense?
[15:36]  Sarria Yaffle: \0/
[15:36]  Aisha Marshdevil: nopes
[15:36]  Aisha Marshdevil: xD
[15:37]  Ima Mechanique: no
[15:37]  Melfina Marshdevil: so you can have 255 prims in a linkset and set 32 of those links as pyhsical?
[15:37]  Falcon Linden: Okay. Let me try again
[15:37]  Falcon Linden: The feature I want to create will let you specify a simple physics representation for a complicated linked prim set
[15:37]  Aisha Marshdevil: simple answer yes or no (for my puny brain to better comprehend XD) if i make a boat 100 prims. can i make it physical?
[15:37]  Techwolf Lupindo: I think instead of phycial prims, now have inviable phycial prims, but also have many phantom pims on the object. Am I correct?
[15:37]  Falcon Linden: Alsha: not without extra work. But with extra work, yes.
[15:37]  Aisha Marshdevil:
[15:37]  sensory Hax nods
[15:37]  xsensory Hax[it>en]: / me nods
[15:38]  sensory Hax: use always script
[15:38]  xsensory Hax[it>en]: Always use script
[15:38]  sensory Hax: ok
[15:38]  xsensory Hax[it>en]: ok
[15:38]  Falcon Linden: You will be able to create a simpler linked set with <32 prims and say "Use this as the physics for the boat." And the boat can have 1000 prims, but they won't be used for physics
[15:38]  Falcon Linden: only the physics set will. Is that any clearer?
[15:38]  Sarria Yaffle: 1000?
[15:38]  Falcon Linden: 1000 = exageration
[15:38]  Sarria Yaffle: x3
[15:38]  Melfina Marshdevil: >9000!?
[15:38]  Melfina Marshdevil: xD
[15:38]  Oskar Linden: ok. next questions is from Drew Dwi: q1) was under the impression the major pain point for lag was Agent Time.... how much if any of that is related to physics stuff?
[15:38]  sensory Hax: as currently it does not change then
[15:38]  xsensory Hax[it>en]: as currently it does not change then
[15:39]  Ima Mechanique: so you create a physical frame and "hang" other prims on it?
[15:39]  Ima Mechanique: with super glue
[15:39]  Falcon Linden: Drew: I've heard both
[15:39]  Falcon Linden: Drew: But physics definitely /can/ be a bottleneck
[15:40]  Falcon Linden: Drew: You see it on the sionChicken farms, for example
[15:40]  Falcon Linden: and with vehicles
[15:40]  Seanas Alston: sionchickens are sim killers if they are too many
[15:40]  Drew Dwi: mmm, right, got it.
[15:40]  Ima Mechanique: yup, I have a *nice* sionChicken barbecue
[15:40]  Oskar Linden: next question from Drew Dwi: q2) can we see falcon's "list"
[15:40]  sensory Hax: lool
[15:40]  xsensory Hax[it>en]: lool
[15:40]  Falcon Linden: Drew: No.
[15:40]  Falcon Linden:
[15:41]  Oskar Linden: last question from Drew Dwi: q3) [15:31:43] Falcon Linden: much better, more efficient ground vehicles-> new physics help region handoffs or that still mostly a package & data transfer problem?
[15:41]  Latif Khalifa: he will show you his if you show him yours
[15:41]  Seanas Alston: i think it is, usually minimising attachments make sim crossings faster
[15:41]  Falcon Linden: That's an area I've just started thinking about. I don't know why vehicles go crazy between regions. It should be fixable, but I haven't begun substantial work on it.
[15:42]  Falcon Linden: I mean, there will likely be a bit of a pause on crossing
[15:42]  Sarria Yaffle: vehicles and agents
[15:42]  Oskar Linden: question from Sarria Yaffle: Does the havok vehicle API support air vehicles as well? any chance of linksets of more than 255 prims?
[15:42]  Falcon Linden: That's going to happen from a data transfer point of view. But right now the vehicles go crazy
[15:42]  Falcon Linden: Sarria: Regarding the vehicle API, no, there's no support for anything oother than ground vehicles. But the ground vehicles are substantially better than what we have now
[15:43]  Falcon Linden: Regarding larger linksets:
[15:43]  Falcon Linden: It's possible that we might allow >255 prims in a link set IF you provide a physics representation that is substantially simpler.
[15:43]  Sarria Yaffle: sweet
[15:43]  Drew Dwi: scary
[15:43]  Melfina Marshdevil: wows.
[15:43]  Oskar Linden: question from Seanas Alston: they are many things about the physics engine that are different to other games that use Havok, such as Half Life 2, the physics are faster responsive, realtime gravity etc do you think in time that this will be accomplished with the Havok physics engine within SL?
[15:43]  Falcon Linden: But I'd have to talk to some other Lindens about that to make sure it's viable
[15:44]  Falcon Linden: Seanas: Great question, and props for asking it
[15:44]  Falcon Linden: We at LL face a unique situation compared to other game studios.
[15:44]  Falcon Linden: Take Uncharted 2, for example. They were proud to have up to 500 dynamic objects in a single scene. We frequently have thousands in SL.
[15:44]  Oskar Linden looks at all of the unique situations that are seaed in front of him ;-)
[15:44]  Drew Dwi: and extra pesky users
[15:44]  Seanas Alston: i guess that makes sence
[15:45]  Fisher Linden: lol
[15:45]  Falcon Linden: We allow people to do basically whatever they want
[15:45]  Falcon Linden: Even when they really, really shouldn't
[15:45]  Sarria Yaffle: x3
[15:45]  Seanas Alston: indeed
[15:45]  Falcon Linden: So I'm trying to provide people with the tools to do it right
[15:45]  Falcon Linden: Now, there are still other issues
[15:45]  Techwolf Lupindo: Seperaterating phycial prims from visiable prims is a step in the right direction. :-)
[15:46]  Falcon Linden: Like client-side prediction. I encourage you all to beg and plead for client-side prediction because (a) it'll make the sim feel much more responsive and (b) I want to work on implementing it because it's fun
[15:46]  Seanas Alston: yes
[15:46]  Saijanai Kuhn: would need to be an optional thing, I suspect
[15:46]  Oskar Linden: next question from Jonathan Yap: Q for Falcon--in load testing what kind of percentage of speed improvement in H7 have you seen?
[15:46]  Techwolf Lupindo: You mean the powerwalk though walls is not fun? ;-)
[15:46]  Falcon Linden: But are we ever going to be able to compete with the current next gen games as they're released? Probably not. We face different challenges.
[15:46]  Falcon Linden: But I hope so. :)
[15:47]  Seanas Alston: indeed
[15:47]  Falcon Linden: Oskar, any more questions?
[15:47]  Latif Khalifa: there are some rudimentary dead reconing thingies in the viewr, but they sure could use a loving hand Falcon :)
[15:47]  Falcon Linden: Latif: Aye. They're not physics enabled
[15:47]  Oskar Linden: did you answer jonathan yap's?
[15:47]  Falcon Linden: Not sure. What was it?
[15:47]  Oskar Linden: 6 lines up
[15:47]  Oskar Linden: 8 lines :-p
[15:48]  Falcon Linden: Not seeing it
[15:48]  Techwolf Lupindo: 10 lines of chat on the wall...*sings*
[15:48]  Sarria Yaffle: [15:45] Falcon Linden: We allow people to do basically whatever they want
[15:45] Falcon Linden: Even when they really, really shouldn't
[15:45] Sarria Yaffle: x3
[15:48]  Oskar Linden: next question from Jonathan Yap: Q for Falcon--in load testing what kind of percentage of speed improvement in H7 have you seen?
[15:48]  Sarria Yaffle: oops
[15:49]  Falcon Linden: Jonathan: I'd rather not say until we get real-world data, but I've been very happy with the results. Mind you, I'll never be /satisfied/: I will always want it faster and better, but I've been very happy with what I've been able to do so far
[15:49]  Falcon Linden: I hope you all will be too
[15:49]  Falcon Linden: ...once we iron out the inevitable crashes and breaking of things :)
[15:49]  Oskar Linden: next question from Melfina Marshdevil: Question: With all of these new functions and features can we expect methods for land owners and estate owners to control how various limits will work.
[15:50]  Falcon Linden: Melfina: I haven't the faintest idea (about what you mean /or/ whether we will or not :)
[15:50]  Oskar Linden: :-D
[15:50]  Falcon Linden: Feel free to rephrase, though!
[15:50]  Melfina Marshdevil: well to be able to disable physics for only group and owner access
[15:50]  Melfina Marshdevil: make it so random people cant use havok
[15:51]  Falcon Linden: Doubtful. Our simulator relies on physics heavily, including for character motion
[15:51]  Drew Dwi: hmmm interesting but without physics they'd be unable to move no?
[15:51]  Oskar Linden disables havok for all non lindens then drives around the grid lag free
[15:51]  Oskar Linden: great idea melfina
[15:51]  Drew Dwi: xD
[15:51]  Falcon Linden: And you can already disallow others from rezzing things on your land
[15:51]  Aisha Marshdevil: would seriously give estate managers power TREAL POWER over greifers too
[15:51]  Fisher Linden: lol...thankfully you said non-Lindens!
[15:51]  Aisha Marshdevil: REAL*
[15:51]  Latif Khalifa: i still don't think physics is the cause of most lag ;)
[15:52]  Falcon Linden: Latif: We'll take this out back later
[15:52]  Falcon Linden: :)
[15:52]  Drew Dwi: you can disable physics as an EM... just no selectivity
[15:52]  Aisha Marshdevil: its no fun ejecting an asswhipe greifer SOOO much more funto freese them in space unable to move or ress
[15:52]  Melfina Marshdevil: yes can we have the ability to selectly disable?
[15:52]  Aisha Marshdevil: :)
[15:52]  Sarria Yaffle: most of my lag comes from people entering/leaving and high script load from what i see
[15:52]  Ima Mechanique agrees with Latif. I think it those pesky residents
[15:52]  Aisha Marshdevil: also it traumatises them into never tryign again
[15:52]  Drew Dwi: yea, brought that up earlier Sarria
[15:52]  Seanas Alston: thats what the freeze function is for
[15:52]  Aisha Marshdevil: torture the little fuckface and he will never want to greif again
[15:52]  Jonathan Yap: Wasn't most of the sim freeze on TP bug fixed recently?
[15:53]  Latif Khalifa: Falcon, is Andrew a happy camper now that he got a dedicated physics guy on the team :) Poor fellow was so overworked
[15:53]  Falcon Linden: Everyone, let's keep this on topic, shall we?
[15:53]  Melfina Marshdevil: I wish EMs could use god freeze on there own estate.
[15:53]  Oskar Linden takes away all of your caffeine and sugar
[15:53]  Falcon Linden: Scripts /shouldn't/ be able to lag the sim
[15:54]  Falcon Linden: As far as I know, they only get run when there's extra time in the frame
[15:54]  Melfina Marshdevil: heh im going to have lots of "fun" with havok 7 lag/crashy wise
[15:54]  Falcon Linden: I could be wrong on that, though
[15:54]  Latif Khalifa: Falcon, running scripts are not able, loading them does.
[15:54]  Latif Khalifa: traditional single giant loop game server comes back to bite, when you have operations lasting 2-3s ;)
[15:54]  Ima Mechanique: they can by using too much RAM Falcon. It's part of what Babbage is working on. not direct lag, but indirect
[15:55]  Falcon Linden: Ima: And similarly, I'm writing code right now to substantially reduce physics memory
[15:55]  Falcon Linden: Ima: err, memory usage, I mean. Heh.
[15:55]  Oskar Linden: last question is not havok related but is in teh agenda under Any Other Business (no name provided though)
[15:55]  Ima Mechanique: excellent
[15:55]  Oskar Linden: "How do Parcel UUID's change llGetParcelDetails (PARCEL_DETAILS_ID) Can we test this really quick?"
[15:55]  Oskar Linden: anyone wanna expound on that?
[15:55]  Latif Khalifa: answer "black magic"
[15:55]  Melfina Marshdevil: yeah if I change something about the parcel
[15:56]  Drew Dwi: any setting I think
[15:56]  Latif Khalifa: teorethically when you split two parcel, the bigger one keeps the original ID
[15:56]  Melfina Marshdevil: what changes on parcels cause the UUID to regenerate
[15:56]  Drew Dwi: kinda like a prim?
[15:56]  Latif Khalifa: nobody could gives us the answer what happesn when you join two, which UUID is assigned
[15:56]  Latif Khalifa: Melfine, joining and splitting
[15:56]  Maestro Linden: Changing the name/description of a parcel doesnt' change it's uuid, for sure
[15:56]  Milo Linden: the uuid of the larger parcel is retained

一飛

叫他們快啦, 等不及了..

hotakyi

Falcon Linden講了一大通正在測試的 Hovak 7新特性 //拼錯了 , 是 Havok

提要：

1，  目前SL 1.3x用是4.6.1， 下一版1.4時候就是 7了
[15:22]  Oskar Linden: It is potentially planned for a feww months out
[15:22]  Oskar Linden: most probably in 1.40
"potentially" ad.
1. 潛在地;可能地
She's potentially our best player, but she needs to practice much harder.
她有可能成為我們最好的球員,但她需要更加努力練習。

"most probably"ad.
1. 大概,或許,很可能
He will probably refuse the offer.
他很可能會拒絕這一提議。

2， 提供sculpty 物理形狀的支持， 現在所有的sculpty都被physical 引擎理解成球體， 未來將加入立方體， 圓柱體等等基本形狀
不是針對 sculpt , 是所有東西都可以有獨立的 physics represetation 嘛

3， linkset 里面允許單獨定義physcial 的prims, 這意味著32 Prim交通工具的限制將被打破
然後到了255 prim 的限制 , 不過也已經被CC 打破 !!!

4,  LSL 直接和Hovak API 溝通？ （這部分 hota 解釋？）
他裡面有說 ground vehicle 才可以用havok 的api , 意思是可以做出操作效果更好的車 , 例如現在的車 , 轉軸都在中心 ...
還有側偏呀 , 磨刷力


*就是可以多client side, 會少lag? ( from msn )
[15:46]  Falcon Linden: Like client-side prediction. I encourage you all to beg and plead for client-side prediction because (a) it'll make the sim feel much more responsive and (b) I want to work on implementing it because it's fun
現在也是有client side prediction ... 可是 predict 得強差人意(要不要quote 一下"明顯與常理相悖").. 你們lag 的時候走一步就l一直飛天 , 穿牆 , 人在飄 , 全部都是viewer predict 的

aston

多謝 hota momi  editor!

aston

還有側偏呀 , 磨刷力

有側偏的話， 就可以模擬每個輪子的G 力情況？ 比如右轉剎車的時候， 右前輪“吃”得很低  ？